John O’Leary (journalist) - Good evening, Gentlemen. Thank you for coming here tonight. The reason we are here is to look at your adventures in Italy during the war. Of course, you were both young men, in your early twenties. So I’d like to introduce John, on my left and Alan, on my right.

John Thurlby - Good evening!

Alan Woods - Good evening!

J.O. - John, can I ask you what Regiment you were in the British Army?

J.T. - I served in the Royal Electrical Mechanical Engineers.

J.O. - And when did you arrive in Italy?

J.T. - In mid-November 1943.

J.O. - And you Alan?

A.W. - I served in the Royal Artillery. Originally it was the 75th Highland Field Regiment Royal Artillery recruited in Northern Scotland around Aberdeen. And then after a year in N. Africa we were equipped with heavy guns so we became the 75th Highland Heavy Regiment Royal Artillery.

J.O. - When did you arrive in Italy?

A.W. - I arrived in Italy in February 1944. We crossed from N. Africa and landed in Naples.

J.O. - Obviously the Allies moved from the South of Italy right to the North. Could you tell me about your trip from the South to the North?

J.T. - Well, most of it. By that time I’d had a spell in hospital and I’d been re-allocated to another regiment. I joined the 12th Royal Tank Regiment, in the recovery unit. It was a mixed unit under the Italian Technical Adjutant; he was a charming man, he was a Captain in the Royal Army, in the Royal Tank Regiment and we were mixed crews. Our job was to recover all kind of armoured personnel carriers and tanks and thus we were attached to HQ Squadron; the Colonel could draw on our services for any of his squadrons at any time. This was very interesting and I found out that I had many good comrades I could totally rely on.

J.O. - How did you make it from the South of Italy?

J.T. - We transferred down to Foggia where the Canadian Divisions were coming across N. Africa. We trained with them for a while, then moved up just south ol Cassino. We were in reserve for the last battle of Cassino. From there, after the final stage of the battle when Cassino was taken, we moved up past Rome to Siena and that journey was done on tank transporters, most of it. We then waited for our instructions. It was the beginning of August and Field Marshall Alexander was the Commander in charge and for two nights we proceeded across the Apennines to the Adriatic coast, where the surprise attack went in, on the night of 24th-25th August.

J.O. - Was this in the Romagna region?

J.T. - Before we got there. It was in an area called the Gothic Line. This was a highly defended area on the Adriatic coast, about 7 miles. It was the flattest part of that particular sector of Italy. Terrific artillery barrage took place at 11 o’clock at night. A thousand guns and no doubt Alan took part in that, and it was a terrific experience. The next morning we moved over the river Metauro and attacked the German positions. The Germans put up very little resistance and for the first four days we slowly advanced into the Gothic line and then the resistance started to increase and we met into the second week, finding it very difficult what, the terrain, the rivers and the increasing reinforcements that were coming across from the other side of Italy. The Canadians were wonderful soldiers and they put up a wonderful display alongside our own men. There were many nations fighting alongside us. I have a lot of admiration for these Infantrymen, the way they carried out their role. Our job was to support them in any way we could and into the third week and on to the end of that stage of the war, the fighting was fiercer as fierce as it was at Cassino and the Canadians took terrible casualties but at last we reached the outskirts of what is the well known sea resort of Riccione. And we fought for the last two ridges. The Germans made us pay heavily for those two ridges, but finally we took them and by this time we were utterly exhausted and we were rested at Riccione. I think the Greeks took Riccione. Fresh troops took on and pushed on up into the Romagna area: Cesena and then on to Forli and by this time the weather had changed against us. We were coming into autumn. It was mid September and we slowly slogged our way up the Adriatic coast and we eventually finished at a place called Russi. And we were within striking distance of Bagnacavallo, then.

J.O. - Alan, you also came from Naples, I believe, and worked your way up to the North.

A.W. - We went into action in Cassino, in time for the last battle: the battle that succeeded. I was a young Officer in the Regiment at the time and I was sent for to the HQ to get the sealed orders for the final battle: on a motorbike, hoping that I wouldn’t fall off it, because this was a top-secret document. Handed it to the Colonel and it gave us the plan for the biggest barrage that was fought in Italy. The battle of Cassino was probably the nearest thing in the Second World War to the kind of fighting one had in the First World War. The barrage itself involved 1500 to 2000 guns opening simultaneously on the 6th pip when all our watches were synchronized to the G.M.T. signal at 11 o’clock. I shall never forget it. It was the biggest noise ever. The battle succeeded and we advanced quickly to Rome. The Regiment passed through Rome two days after its liberation. It was a very exciting time. Then we went into action again north of Rome and really stayed in action, one could say, almost for the rest of the war. There were not many Heavy Regiments, so we were needed. After Rome we headed for Lake Trasimeno where the Germans fought a holding action. From Lake Trasimeno we headed for Florence and after Florence had been liberated - a very pleasant place to liberate Florence - after that we were sent to a place called Marradi just on the edge of the Romagna: a crossroads town in the Apennines, which was very uncomfortable because it was constantly being shelled. And then we were moved into the Romagna, but into the mountainous part to the South-West of Imola, in between Sassoleone and San Clemente, in a remote valley. We wondered why we’d been sent so far north. Then we realized that with our long-range heavy guns we could fire onto the road which went right across the North Italian Plain.

J.O. - Can we come back to when you arrived in the Romagna for the first time, that would be the in the autumn of 1944. Can you remember your first impressions of Romagna as a place?

J.T. - I think my first impression was that the Italian people were more patriotic and more democratic. They gave us a warm welcome and did everything in their power to assist us. For instance, the Partisan groups had made maps of the mine fields and other hazards which the Germans had laid for us and this was a great assistance to our engineers who quickly cleared them and allowed the Infantry to push on and the Armour. I think the Germans tried to hold Bagnacavallo; they made great efforts on the Lamone and there was some fierce fighting there but eventually the Canadians, after a fierce battle, shifted the Germans back to the Senio River; as you will know became the Winter Line, much to the disappointment of many Italians to whom we didn’t give their liberation. They had to wait until the spring of 1945.

J.O. - Can you, Alan, remember your first impressions of the Romagna region?

A.W. - I have two very different impressions, because when we moved to Sassoleone we were in fact in the mountains in that part of Romagna, which was a very bleak place to be in the middle of the winter. We had a lot of snow, we had a lot of fog, we had a lot of rain and above all we had a lot of mud and I shall never forget that. It was only in the early spring of 1945 that we were taken out from that position. Two guns were left to fool the Germans into thinking that we were still there. And then we moved across the Apennines again to the Adriatic coast and went into our action positions in front of Bagnacavallo, between Bagnacavallo and the Senio River. There we were in a completely different landscape. By now, it was spring. It was very pleasant weather and we were overcome by being on a flat plain again after spending so much time in the mountains.

J.O. - You’ve already mentioned the River Lamone, which is the river which runs towards the front. Can you recall what fears or thoughts you had or maybe your colleagues had at that time?

J.T. - I think the atmosphere of sadness prevailed because we’d hoped that we would see the end of the war in Italy and of course we had not achieved our objective of ending the war before the winter had set in. So we faced another winter at war and all that went with it and we’d not given liberation to the whole of northern Italy and to its people. And I think we were rather sad about that, but there again it had been a long hard slog and Alan has recounted it. We did our best, but it was a disappointment.

J.O. - Obviously, at some stage later, you both entered Bagnacavallo, Can you recall, Alan, what the atmosphere was like when you actually got into the town?

A.W. - We arrived there late. We went there for the final battle of the Senio and the thing that I remember above all was the way in which the Italian population that had remained there, some I think had moved away to a safer area - and I don’t blame them - but the ones that were there carried on with life as they possibly could. We had our Headquarters in a very nice farmhouse with a delightful couple and they were trying to carry on all their farming activities as though the war wasn’t happening - and yet shells were landing quite often. They were in great danger but still they carried on.

J.O. - John, can you remember your experiences in Bagnacavallo?

J.T. - My experiences were very similar, but I felt the atmosphere was very tense. They were pleased to be free and after their traumatic experience of the battle on the Lamone River, they slowly tried to live as normal a life as they could and they were extremely kind to us.

J.O. - Of course a lot of people here in the UK won’t realize that once you’d liberated Bagnacavallo, the Germans were only a few miles away on front line, which that time was Lugo. Can you recall what your daily routine was?

J.T. - I felt that, as we got to know each other, there was a sense of togetherness and my routine was really a state of readiness at all times, because we didn’t know what was going to happen but we had to be ready to go out and to recover any tanks, anybody who was in trouble or breakdowns. And it so happened that our Colonel decided to keep our recovery unit in the one position just on the outskirts of Bagnacavallo. So when our Regiment was in the lines supporting the Infantry on the River Senio. They were dug into the banks of the River Senio on our side; when we were relieved by our Sister Regiment, we would remain where we were and go back and service them and also we learnt all about our new tanks which was a nasty surprise for the Germans when they realized that we had flame thrower Crocodile Churchill Tanks and all the new equipment that went with it. My normal day was probably doing servicing on recovery vehicles. We’d three Churchill Tanks. If you can imagine, they were Churchill Tanks with no turrets on; they put ordinary doors on the top and we were equipped with all kinds of recovery equipment. We could even erect a derrick to change a main sprocket and things like that. We carried tracks, we carried bogeys, we carried sprockets. All these kind of things came into use as the occasion arose, so we were pretty mobile in many ways.

J.O. - How about you, Alan? Did you have a daily routine or was it as clear out as John’s?

A.W. - The daily routine would be firing our guns, of course, but we were also building up big stocks of ammunition for the final battle. We tended to do a lot of firing at night because by this time the Allies had got complete air superiority. We could move anything by day and it was highly improbable that anyone from the Luftwaffe would see us, so we had complete freedom. But the Germans had 2000 allied aircrafts flying over them - not all at once - but from time to time; and they could only really move their reinforcements and their ammunition at night, so the important job we had was to make that as difficult for them as we could; that involved firing on the roads leading to Lugo, on the outside. With regard to what we felt personally, well I know what I felt. We knew that the war was going to end. It was in its final stages: the Russians were in the outskirts of Berlin; the Allies in the West, the Americans and the British were well into Germany. It was going to end and we all hoped that we would survive just this little bit longer so that we would also see the end of the war.

J.O. - Of course, you are now two lucky men. You did survive. You ‘ve managed to come through most of your life with good health. Is there anything, finally, that you ‘d like to say to the people of Bagnacavallo?

A.W. - I would. One thing that I learnt was a great love of Italy. I fortunately had studied a bit of Italian before I went to Italy- when I was at university, briefly - and I’ve tried to keep it up, but… So, I’d say “Grazie” and I would like to visit Bagnacavallo again. My health wasn’t too good earlier this year but we’ll see what we can do in 2005, and I’d love to go and visit them.

J.O. - How about you, John? Is there any final word you’d like to say to the people of Bagnacavallo?

J.T. - Well, I feel that we in Stone have a lot in common with Bagnacavallo. Nowhere, in Italy, did I find such a warm welcome and people in thought and deed akin to my own people at home. I feel that… I look to the future, the future generations… I hope from all this will come a better understanding especially among the young people. And if anyone wants any further information of my experiences, I’ve written my memoir and it is in the hands of at least 3 people in Bagnacavallo. And I hope someone will translate it into Italian and everyone can get, if they wish, a further insight into my experiences.

J.O. - On a final note, thank you both for coming here and for sharing your experiences and, more importantly, can I say least we not forget your colleagues from that period.